[This interview took place in Gene's office at Kalish & Rice, the Philadelphia advertising firm where Gene, as he puts it at one point in the interview, was making his living, "in that crass, commercial world." Good-humored as always, he allowed us to take up a considerable part of the late afternoon, with his full and thoughtful answers to our questions sparking other questions in turn. Radio DJ, MC of the Philadelphia Folk Festival since its beginning, TV writer and producer, teacher and friend to folkies of all persuasions, Gene Shay remains one of the principal reasons why Philadelphia is such a warm and hospitable place to musicians and their music. We hope you enjoy the following conversation as much as we did.]

John: Can you tell us how you came to meet Joni Mitchell in the first place?

Gene: In the same way that I've come to meet most of the singer-songwriters, interpreters - concertina players - whatever - most of the musicians that I've met, on my program. Or met in the sense that I've been able to talk with them about their music. I came in contact with them through my program, which has been going on now, I think it's in its seventeenth year. Since my program was on a Sunday night, and the coffeehouses in Philadelphia, even in the time of the Blue Laws - when bards couldn't open on Sundays - coffeehouses could operate, so at one time, especially during the folk music revival, the American folk revival of the Sixties, from '62 on, even before that, every Sunday night there was another performer passing through Philadelphia, or else in the clubs. There were always clubs. There were clubs all over the place. Levittown had one. There was The Second Fret, The Gilded Cage, there was The Main Point...

John: World Control?

Gene: No, World Control Studios came a lot later, towards the tail end of the 60s, the early 70s, as I remember it.

John: I only heard of it through Chris Dewalo.

Gene: Oh, there was The Guitar Workshop, and also a place called The Philadelphia Folk Workshop, in the Nicetown area of the city. It was a house. They were one of the earliest groups, apart from the Philadelphia Folksong Society, to sponsor concerts and workshops. They had Doc Watson doing a workshop, for instance. Joni Mitchell came to town for her first performance in Philadelphia at the Second Fret. At the time she was married to Chuck Mitchell, who was on the same program. He opened for Joni, and they came on my [radio] show together, even though they didn't sing in performance together, they each had their own act. And Chuck Mitchell's act was art songs, Kurt Weill/Bertolt Brecht, "The Threepenny Opera" material.

John: The kind of thing that Judy Collins was doing then?

Gene: Well, Judy Collins was just getting into Jacques Brel's music - we all were. It's funny you mention that, because every time I'd see Judy Collins she'd say, "How are you doing, Gene, what are you listening to?" And I remember when I told her we were listening to The Incredible String Band, and she said, "Yay! So am I!" And just a few months later her album came out, and she'd recorded one of Robin Williamson's songs, "First Girl I Loved." You know that one?

John: I love that song. She has it on her "Hello Hooray" album, as I recall, and Robin's version is on The Incredible String Band's "Chinese White" album - "Layers of the Onion."

Gene: Right. So that's how I met Joni Mitchell - the same way I met Tom Rush, Tom Paxton, Phil Ochs, all those people.

John: Dave Bromberg?

Gene: Dave Bromberg. It's also interesting that a lot of the people - for instance, when I first met Bromberg, he was not Bromberg the solo performer -

John: "Le Grande Frommage"?

Gene: No, he was an accompanist. But when I did meet artists who had other musicians with them, second guitar, bass player, whatever, some of these people went on to become recording artists in their own right, years later. So I had the opportunity, a terrific opportunity, to meet these people over the years, and watch them gain popularity. When I first saw them, they were making their first gigs in Philadelphia. Arlo Guthrie. It was the first time he had worked, had sung professionally - except for some things close to where he had lived - when he came to Philadelphia. And invariably most of these performers had a good time on the show, so the next time around it was much easier for me to get them to come around. People were wary of the medium, if you understand what I mean. They were a bit afraid of the standard kind of radio interview done in the old style. And my style was - it took them aback a bit, at first.

John: That couch.

Gene: No. No, it was just sort of like the looseness and informality, so we'd forget it was an interview, it would just be a discussion, you know, or a jam session, because I either had artists who were playing two or three clubs at the same time in the area, who'd all converge, or whatever. I think I answered the question about Joni Mitchell, didn't I?

John: I guess so!

Gene: And you also have to remember that Joni liked Philadelphia a lot and she became quite friendly with some people here. She wrote "Both Sides Now," and performed it on my show three days after it was written. She used to hang out in Philadelphia. She once had a gig at I think The Second Fret one weekend and The Main Point the next - it could be vice versa - during that week she stayed around. She used to shop on 20th Street, buy antique jewelry and clothes, sit in, she'd go over to The Trauma, which was the beginning, our first psychedelic club.

John: Early disco?

Gene: Well, there wasn't any - we didn't know the word "disco" back then. It was the first psycho-delic entertainment place, before the Electric Factory concerts open up, at 22nd and Arch. The Trauma was where Just Jazz now is, on Arch Street. It was owned by the same gentleman who owned The Second Fret. I'm just...

John: I'm fascinated. Because I never knew any of those places. I was elsewhere then. This may be a crazy question, just jumping in, but as a matter of context. Your radio program, now on WIOQ, I think you could say it's become famous over the years for these interviews with performers. This may be a nutty question, but who was your best interview over the last, oh, six months to a year?

Gene: H'mm. That's a tough one. A tough question, because I have to think over it... I wish I had a list of all the people I've interviewed. You know something - I do. Let me just - I may have a list here (Searching among the papers on his desk). I do keep a calendar of people, of upcoming interviews, that I don't...

John: I know it was on your show that I first heard that Kevin Roth would be giving dulcimer lessons to Judy Collins - and that was within the last six months.

Gene: Right. Though I don't know if that was a particularly good interview. I know... In the past six months I'll tell you one that I enjoyed very much was with Lou Killen. Because it was the first chance that I'd had to sit down and talk about British Isles music with someone like that. I've always been quite frankly envious of Lou Killen's vocal equipment (Laughter) - I think he's one of the best singers - since I have a penchant for British Isles music - and I guess it is Northumbrian -

John: In Lou's case it would be.

Gene: Well, Lou does a lot of those sea shanties - those melodies! - and to have him bring his concertina and just sit there, without any interruption, and just talk about music and singing and the Ewan MacColl-Peggy Seeger influence in Great Britain - these are the things I read about and hear about and talk about with performers, but I was getting it first hand from the man - he is part of that, the early days of the revival in Great Britain.
And that gave me the chance to make mental notes in comparison, between the revival as I experienced it here, and that over there.

John: He's very articulate. I spoke with him at the Philadelphia Folk Festival this year, and he talked a lot, not only about what he'd sing, but also about media questions - problems of radio interviews, live performance in different contexts - he's very sharp.

Gene: Yeah! It's really hard for a performer to open up - I'm not talking too much in an interview sense, I mean even doing a good performance with no audience present. I know some performers who just have to have people around them, and one of the nice things about my show is that the waitresses from The Main Point or from The Second Fret or wherever would always come over, and there'd always be some people who'd for ma little bit of an audience. And that can always, you know, stimulate any performer who needed that kind of thing.

John: Lou Killen could perform with an audience of one. I saw him with Charlie Chin
At one of he Philly festival hotel sessions, and Lou sang a couple of ballads and then Charlie played this huge Chinese ceramic flute across it. And just to catch the two of them together -

Gene: A zither-like instrument?

John: No, I don't know what you'd call it. I think it's a sakahachi - David Amram could probably tell me -

Gene: Oh, I know what you mean!

John: He played that, and Lou sang - just lovely music. Not to change the subject or anything - and it's not, really - but you've MC'd the Philly Festival for I don't know how many years -

Gene: Every year.

John: I didn't know that.

Gene: Every festival. Well, I was one of the founders of the festival, one of a number of people who started it. And at that time, since I was the person on the radio, it fell logically to me to MC the evening concerts, I guess. So I've been doing it every year since then. This will be my seventeenth year coming up - I think my seventeenth. [It's now his fortieth, as of 2001 - Ed.]

John: What changes have you seen in, let's say, the last five years?

Gene: The last five? Well, I think I've seen for a while the trend to more contemporary music and song - it's varied from year to year. But there has always been a fairly good balance. I felt that this year the balance wasn't - even though the festival was, it was a very good festival and I enjoyed the performances - but I still felt there was something missing - certain areas of music that were missing this year. But I think this would be improved on. The festival is, as you know, and always has been run by the folksong society. The booking part of it used to be run by - fall on the shoulders of one person, with the advice of others. And of course occasionally some performers would be booked, and then - you have a performance that is nicely balanced, with just enough blues, just enough bluegrass and so on, and then invariably something will happen, someone will cancel or something, and then suddenly you're out of balance. Then you have to make very quick changes! That's happened. The most dramatic change in the festival booking has been this year, going back to a much quieter, more laidback, folkier program. Something that I don't object to at all! But that's really no excuse to be boring either! Being traditional and getting back to more "roots" music and to traditional singers or interpreters of traditional music, there are an awful lot of exciting performers and performances. I didn't see to many exciting performances this year, and that was a disappointment to me. Perhaps there were - I've been told there were some exciting moments during the workshops, and because I MC the evening concerts I stay up pretty late, and I unfortunately miss a lot of workshops that I'd like to see. That's something I can't quite seem to reconcile, though.

John: That's the thing that's difficult about a festival with 17 or 18 workshops all over the place - there's a synergistic argument for it, but you can also argue the other way.

Gene: Yeah, that concept - I understand at the Winnipeg festival it isn't worked that way, and that's a good one. There are no conflicting workshops there.

John: Well, Winnipeg is Mitch Podolak's baby.

Gene: Yeah, Mitch, right. Well, it's just a different concept, but there are arguments both ways. It all depends what you're after. I would like to see a festival with fewer performers on the evening stage, so that we can get more of those - I think twenty minutes is not a set, as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes it takes it 25 minutes to get off the ground!

John: I know the Red Clay Ramblers - I have all their albums and I've seen them kin performance elsewhere, and they were very different at the Philly Festival from any time I head them before I asked them about that, and they said themselves that they'd had to change tempos, to squeeze thing in -

Gene: To keep up with the schedule?

John: Sure.

Gene: Well, that's a shame.

John: On the other hand, I did hear Odetta do, "The Water is Wide," and the same night Lou Killen did it, and the difference was startling.

Gene: Oh, yeah, I'm not saying - look, in ten minutes you can captivate an audience!
Certain people - Odetta is a powerful performer, Lou Killen's a powerful performer - certain people can do that. Certain people can excite an audience even with a slow song, can be very compelling. But I'd still rather have, rather than ten acts of 20 minutes, I would prefer four acts with a lot more time to get to know that performer, and get to know the material. I think it's a question of - I think people who run festivals feel an obligation to keep the balance so that you have a certain amount of bluegrass, you have to have a certain amount of blues, you have to have old-timey, they have to have Scots-Irish, British Isles - Clogging! Bagpipes! And you know, put them all together, and you get either it's pandemonium or else it's very choppy - one act on, one act off, that kind of thing.

John: It's the same thing at bluegrass festivals - I think bluegrass festivals are always over-booked.

Gene: I would like to see a festival - this probably wouldn't help sell tickets, but it would be my kind of festival - one night would be country music, one would be old-timey and bluegrass, one night British Isles and sea-shanties, one night blues and Black religious music. With maybe three acts or four performers. But it's a different kind of festival.

John: The Middletown Folk Festival this year put Joe Val and the New England Bluegrass Boys one right next to a Black Baptist church choir. So you had the Bluegrass Gospel and the Black Gospel right there next to each other.

Gene: White Gospel and Black Gospel? That would be nice. Because then you could probably hear some crossover things.

John: Oh, you can tell, when you listen to Irish music and then to American old-timey bands, that there's a syncopation influence from Black African music that's so clear in American music, and it's just not there in the Irish tradition.

Gene: Oh yes, Black music has influenced just about every kind of American music there is, including symphonic. Contemporary composers like John Cage. Just syncopation itself - and the whole call-and-response thing. Though that's a workshop thing you can probably get from the shanties.

John: That's probably a much more restricted influence though,

Gene: I was thinking of things like prison songs, field hollers, that kind of thing.

John: You remember Bob Dylan's old line about that - "Went down south to get me some chain gang songs, but they wasn't singin'!"

Gene: Well, Alan Lomax went down, and they sure were singin'! (Laughter) Either the wrong prison, or... I'm not sure what made the difference there.
John: I've another question I wanted to ask you. I think a lot of people are aware of some of the things you've been doing - MC'ing the Philly Folk Festival, hosting your show on WIOQ, helping with concerts like the all-nighter over at Widener College - are there other activities that maybe people should know about?

Gene: Oh. Well, I've often thought of my program and my interest in music as a hobby!
I make my living in the crass, commercial world of advertising, I'm a writer, a producer for television and radio commercials. I work a few days a week doing that. And I've owned my own advertising agency, I've been creative director of a number, I've won a number of awards for my work, and right now I'm also getting into record production. I'm producing albums. I'm just starting to get into this. I've just produced my first musical TV - not program, but live performance piece for television. What else am I doing? I'm writing, performing even, and producing, along with a few other people, a new comedy and music program for syndication - if it's going to be syndicated, it might be carried on some FM stations, and sold to that station's ownership, or to a number of stations, part of a small network. What else? Oh, I'm going to be teaching a course at the Entertainers' Workshop, a closed-circuit operation - I'm really excited about this one, since I have been producing TV commercials with on-camera talent, ever since I first got into advertising, in 1963 or '64. Right from the beginning I was doing the RCA commercial.

We used to rehearse them, then do them live, so you can imagine all the mistakes - on the seven o'clock Channel Six News...! Of course, now we videotape all our commercials, but I'm still doing that kind of thing. But the Entertainers' Workshop is a closed circuit situation, using both videotape and stereo sound, and I'll be teaching a course in Commercial Presentation, for men and women, boys and girls, anybody who has the looks and the potential to stand up in front of a camera. That's giving the person the opportunity to learn all the little tricks of the trade - the techniques of how to read a cue-card and not look as if you're reading a cue-card. And that's just another night of my week.

John: I should take that course - it's always one of those crossed-eyes things, right?

Gene: Well, with videotape and instant replay it's going to make it a lot easier for people to critique at once how someone looks in front of a camera. At the same time the school is also for performance development, in a sense that a trio that's never been on television could come into the Entertainers' Workshop, and see themselves on TV, see how they look, and say, "Oh my goodness, I never realized I had this nervous habit of raising my hand up to my right, that looks just terrible!" And something that turned off an audience before could be corrected. Of course, they'd be getting the suggestions also from people who are professionals, a professional comedian who's going to be doing the comedy course, I'll be handling the commercial presentations, and a vocal coach, and a performance coach. So that's just one of the new things. So I'm going in a lot of different directions. But I'd like to stay in the music area. If I had my druthers, I think I've always had this secret desire to be a folklorist and get to graduate school. But maybe I'll wait until I retire! I envy Mick Moloney - I envy all those people - Ken Goldstein, the MacEdward Leaches, Tris Coffin, all those people. I used to audit those classes - I would sit in on their ballad courses with Kenny and MacEdward Leach.

John: I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was maybe a wee bit of envy going the other way too, Gene.

Gene: How do you mean?

John: Well, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are some people on the other side, saying, "I wish I was Gene Shay!"!

Gene: Well, what can you say?

John: The funny thing is, that next question I had for you was, "If you had your druthers, would you try to focus on one or the other of these activities, or would you diversify even further?"

Gene: You know, I didn't even mention the magic book? Talking about diversification...
As you know, last year I did a book about magic, and I've been planning to do a book on music, using a .lot of the verbatim answers transcribed from the early interviews I've done, with people like Jim Croce and John Denver, Arlo Guthrie and Jerry Jeff Walker, Janis Ian, Melanie, those people. But the research involved is overwhelming, and also one of my biggest problems is trying to recapture them. I didn't tape all of those early programs, and some of those interviews are unfortunately lost in the vapor. Every now and then I run into someone who has one of mine. I just got a Doc Watson interview I did. But getting back to what we were saying, if I had my druthers I'd like to do something new every year. I feel like going into these different areas not only is fun, and is challenging, it's adventurous, it keeps me on my toes. So - maybe next year it'll be TV. Maybe I'll syndicate my program - I have been talking about doing that for years. Or taking snips and pieces of these interviews where I do a valid comparison. I might take a basic Child ballad, where the primary story is pretty clear, and do two completely different variations. I have some modern jazz versions of "Gypsy Davey," for example, I have synthesizer versions of the Irish ballads. Now compare that with Joe Heaney singing, back to back, you've got almost two different things, but based on the same theme.... I'm thinking about - and this is not necessarily in answer to your question - about the way Steeleye Span and Fairport over the last few years have been very dynamic, and do really good music, and are also, I think, very true to the background.
Even though it is electrified in most cases. The song is done with a certain amount of integrity and respect for its traditional roots. I was thinking - is there an American group that does that? Am I overlooking somebody?

John: I know that Robin Williamson's "Journey's Edge" has a Celtic thing underlying it.

Gene: You mean Robin Williamson and his Merry Band?

John: Right, not The Incredibles. They do this one, "Voices of the Barbary Coast," that's both very sweet and also very complex. It's a mingling of themes from the kinds of music you'd have been liable to hear out in California over the last one hundred years or so.

Gene: H'm. It's something that's been missing from the American folk - or, "folk rock" - scene. Or perhaps I've just missed it.

John: I wonder. Bill Hicks, of the Red Clay Ramblers, has been using an electric fiddle in some of their more recent gigs. And their version of old-timey music is the most - I don't know - jazz-influenced?

Gene: H'mm. I don't know. I don't know the Red Clay Ramblers' work as well as I feel I should. That's a problem, with me in particular - because I'm going in so many directions at once. So many new albums coming out - so many old albums coming out! I do feel it's important I do my homework, and that means listen to as many of the records as I can. I have to keep this kind of thing in balance. The rest of my activities are pretty time-consuming. For example, I go out a lot in the evenings because a lot of the performers ask me to come hear them. And people ask me how they can get on my program, and I say - "Do me a favor - send me a cassette. You don't have to go into a studio - just s home-produced cassette." I've actually auditioned people over the phone! They didn't send me a tape - I just said, "Put down the phone and sing me a song." I mean, my standards aren't - I'm not a Gong Show! [Laughter] But at the same time I would like to hear everybody who's on my show, and 99 percent of the case every record that you hear on my show is one of my favorites, or it's something I like. I rarely try a new album out on the air, or even a new cut.

John: I know the band Watertite that you had on the air -

Gene: I know Watertite, and they're very good. I never did answer your question, what was my best interview. I think Lou Killen was my most successful in some ways, but I've had some tremendous - Watertite now, I just got a new tape from them. That band has changed a lot. Ed Rhoades is a very sensitive musician, who I think is adventurous in the sense that he's very innovative, he's always looking for new material, he's always looking for very good sources, and he's selective. So they have a fairly nice repertoire.. I haven't heard the new tape, the current one, but I have it on my list of tapes that I have to listen to - in that stack of things to do tomorrow - or maybe the day after! [Laughter]

John: The last regular question I had to ask you - we had some backups if we have the time - is whether you have any plans for the immediate future that you'd like to share with our readers.

Gene: Oh, I think we've covered that so far. I think we did talk about my long-term dream, if that's what you'd call it, to package my program and syndicate it. I've been told by people from New York and the West Coast, people who travel around a lot, like Josh Dunson, that the show is very unique. And the old tapes I started to talk about earlier - if anybody could come up with them, get in touch with me, who has tapes - I remember seeing an ad once, someone who was writing a book about Richard Farina, and who wanted to get hold of the old interview I did withy him. Now I don't even have that tape!
And Mississippi John Hurt - that's an old tape that's missing. Fred McDowell - Phil Ochs, maybe five or six times, a long time ago, and I only have one or two of those tapes. You see, I couldn't tape every station I worked at. But if I could get some of the back, I'd like to do something with them. John: I know there's a book out about Richard Farina, by Neal and Sally Hellman. But I don't think it's that kind of book.

Gene: No, I guess it's a songbook, really. And I've been asked by a number of magazines, publications, to do record criticism. That's something that for some reason or other I always push off to the last. I don't know, I'm not quite sure why. I guess it's because I have to force myself to sit down and write headlines, or brochures for rent-a-car agencies, things that don't particularly thrill me. I guess I'd rather just enjoy music, listen to it, play it on the radio - things that I enjoy, rather than, ah, start to analyze, pontificate on it, what I think is right or wrong with this particular album. I can talk about it, yeah, but I haven't gotten into any of that yet.

John: It's a difficult task, I think, to do record reviews. You can't please everybody. Do we have some time here yet?

Gene: Oh, sure.

John: Here's a question - a media question, you might say. What's the difference you see between live, onstage MC'ing, or a radio show, or perhaps doing TV? What media distinctions do you see?

Gene: Well, one of the joys of being onstage is that you get immediate reinforcement. You know at once what that response is. On the radio you're never sure. You can't be out there, you can't know how they're responding, you know, "Who does he think he is," or "He's got his facts all wrong." You know. Whereas if I say at the Folk Festival, you know, "Here's Doc Watson and his lovely wife Merle" - you know what I mean - it's a variation on the old Gershwin joke - and right away I get either a boo or a laugh or a correction. But I could say on-air, "Here's a piece that was recorded in the thirties," and five or six days later get a response saying, "It was recorded in 1929." I think that I work better in front of live audiences, though of course I can't play any records for them. I can sit in - I regard my radio program as an extension of my living-room, with a bunch of friends, as sort of my audience. The people who like my program, I sort of feel as if I'm on the same wave-length with them. We like the same kind of music, their interests are catholic enough that they can appreciate a lot of different kinds of music. I consider my audience my friends. That's why I can mix it up for themI try not to be too bluegrassy, though I do play bluegrass. I try not to be too British Isles-y - though just like everyone else I'm human and have a tendency to go off the deep end occasionally. So I have to keep thinking about that. I don't know if I really have any preference. I know I do love radio. I've always been fascinated by broadcasting, by communications, by electronicsnot so much the technical end of it, just what you can do with your voice and sound effects. Like those seagulls at the beginning of the National Geographic Society record of sea-shanties from that album with Lou Killen and John Roberts and Tony Barrand. The same effect that was used by Procol Harum in "Salty Dog"? I think the thing I'm interested in is communicating, I don't care what the medium is.

John: I wonder if you find yourself more at the mercy of a producer or director in a control room - you know, the chap who can focus one of the cameras on something that you didn't care about, or didn't focus on something that you really wanted close up?

Gene: Well, I've never been in that situation, I've never done my own program on television. But if I were to do my own program, I would think that I would want it to be as loose, as informal - maybe a bit more structured - as my radio show. But certainly my producer there would have to be a friend, or someone I had faith in, one who understood, who had sensitivity for the kind of thing I did. You know, I'm not a Mike Douglas, I'm not a Tom Snyder, that kind of thing.

John: I was thinking of something else. I know the Seattle Folklore Society is advertising the fact that they have videotapes of musicians, especially focussed on their techniques.

Gene: Radio?

John: No, from TV programs. People like Reverend Gary Davis, Libba Cotton. It seems - I'm not sure of this - that they had appeared in the Seattle area, and were taped for television, and the producer focussed on the instrumental techniques and so forth. It does sound as if it would be a very useful teaching device.
Gene: That's interesting. I didn't know those tapes existed.

John: It's John Ullman, of the Seattle Folklore Society, who runs the Traditional Arts Booking Service, who has produced this.

Gene: Well, I've just produced a tape with Lew London, the Lew London Trio, and I'm contemplating doing a series of performers, preferably acoustic, so we don't have too many audio variations, electronic problems.

John: Of course, putting Lew London on videotape is not going to help too many people.
People will see it, but they still won't believe it! [Laughter] They'll see those fingers blurring, and they'll still say, "No! Can't be done!"

Gene: Same thing with a Doc Watson. H'm. But I think it would be nice to tape a lot of performers, especially traditional performers who're not going to be with us too long. It's nice to know there is a videotape of the Rev. Gary. I mean, we have records of his, but I didn't know there was also videotape. And Elizabeth Cotten? It's just like, one of the stations is documenting Ola Belle Reed and her family. And that's really important. It really should be a part of the American archives.

John: And of course Ola has her own museum at home, and she is interested in making sure that it is kept on.

Gene: I would love to do a TV series, produce it, on people like JP Fraley and AL Lloyd - I'd love to go to England with a crew, and just get him to sing some songs, tape it, you know? There's just so many things I would like to do. But that requires funding and so on.

John: I did have some other questions, though most of them have been answered, though not necessarily in the sequence I had in mind. But there was one - what do you see as the future for - I call them "folk music halls," the term "coffeehouses" has such poor connotations for me - do you think there's much chance for many new people breaking into and running such an enterprise, or do you think it's overcrowded?

Gene: I think there is still plenty of potential. There are a lot of colleges and community people who are sponsoring coffeehouses. Mostly on a non-profit basis. That encourages young guitarists to perform in front of an audience. It also stimulates an interest in the source of the music. I think that any sensitive person who picks up the guitar and starts to learn a couple of ballads, chances are they'll start to do a little investigating, and learn about some of the variants, and will start to learn what the "folk process" is all about, tracing back to the ballads too. I think - and I hope - maybe it's wishful thinking - but well, sales of guitars are as strong or stronger than they've ever been.

John: That's one good sign, isn't it?

Gene: Sure. I hear about other coffeehouses opening up. In West Chester, The Carriage House is a recent addition, at Widener College. There are more colleges out of the immediate area - The Main Point is, you know - Tom Rush and I helped put together that benefit concert, they've changed their status to non-profit, and fortunately they're OK, still in business - they're not "thriving," but they are still in business. And I think there is room for it. It does give people a chance to get up on stage, and there are a lot of other people out there, with guitars, living-room singers, who sing for their friends and family, and who are very good - and they have no platform, they can't get up on a big stage like The Main Point - they have no track record, no recording contract or a name. So it gives them a chance, an opportunity. Maybe it's a church coffeehouse, in a basement somewhere.

John: I know I heard a rumor recently that someone in this town is trying to open up a place which would have a liquor license, and also have this kind of acoustic music.

Gene: I'd like to see that kind of place open up, and flourish.

John: I know that up in New York, Albany, there's "Reactionary Mary's."

Gene: Oh, there are quite a few of them in operation. There are places that serve liquor, and have folk music, and they're very successful. I don't see why they wouldn't be successful here too. But I can understand The Main Point's reluctance to even try to get a liquor license, because the people who own The Main Pint do specifically feel that young people - there are a lot of them in their particular area - deserve a place where they can see someone like a Tom Paxton, a Tom Rush, The Newgrass Revival, John Hartford, Sparky Rucker, whoever. And there's the Cherry Tree Folk Club - there's a lot of folk club activity in this area. And WXPN, and now WUHY - Greg Giamo, one of my former assistants, is doing radio programs now. And there's another by Tor Johansen, and Bob Carlin, of the Delaware Water Gap String Band. I wish I knew them all, there's lots of them. And there is the network, Public Broadcasting, what would we do without that? I mean, talking of taking XPN off the air - that would be like cutting off a major source of folk music!

John: Speaking of folk-pub places - there's the Eagle Tavern in New York City, and it has a liquor license, sells its beer and so on, but it has its music in the back room. And I believe it's Mick Moloney who says the atmosphere there is very like an English folk pub, where they have their beer in front of them, but they keep the noise down, and they really listen to the music.

Gene: That's great! Look, for many years the place where Dylan got his start, Gerde's Folk City - Phil Ochs, and I remember the time I was managing Billy Vanaver here in Philadelphia, and booking them, and they're drinking places, you'd see Van Ronk in there, Patrick Sky - oh, and there's Billy Vanaver, on the cover of The Folk Life!

John: Well, since you mentioned him...
Gene. An old Philadelphian. Well, I don't see any reason why a drinking club couldn't be a folk club. There's certainly an adult audience that would rather not go to The Main Point because they really don't want coffee and a cheese-board. They want - much as they would like to hear bluegrass - they would rather - well, a good example is the Bryn Mawr Beef and Ale House! For a while there they had JD Crowe and his group [The New South].

John: Well, I saw New Appalachia there. Now, that's another young, local group that plays solid bluegrass.

Gene: I don't know them. They should send me a tape.

John: That's a thought. Going back to the coffeehouses question - I guess I thought the commercial problem was that if you cut yourself off from liquor sales, from that adult audience, to keep a coffeehouse going with just coffee and pastry -

Gene: Well, then you have to ask, "Who's on stage?" You just cannot make as much money in a coffeehouse on the food as you can on a bar. There's a tremendous profit potential when you have a liquor license. And that is why a lot of the folk clubs are always in trouble... The performers, after appearing at the club a few times, their prices rise, as they become more popular, and after a while they'd rather do college concerts and in one night make as much money as they could make in three nights in a coffeehouse - where they'd also have to do two shows a night. So, if you have the real choice - well, if you're a Michael Cooney and you love to sing anywhere and everywhere - or a Steve Wade, with all the enthusiasm -

John: -- and that energy!

Gene: It's a very different thing. But even they would prefer to do concerts. But you've got to build that audience, to be able to fill a concert hall. And the only way to do that is to start on it may be a coffeehouse level, and first, and then on. But you get people who play The Main Point - like Tom Rush - who also do play The Bijou - which is a drinking club - and who also do college concerts. And are successful at all three. And I think it just goes to prove the strength of the performer, and how compelling a performer is, and how well-liked and popular. And of course the profit angle, when it comes to coffeehouses versus drinking places, like John and Peter's in New Hope, well, they have a very good concept, where they give the gate to the performer. And the John Herald Band is one of the best contemporary bluegrass bands, I think - John is certainly one of the best singers in the business, and also an excellent songwriter, they can do very well there on a weekend. They can make almost double the money they can make at The Main Point, or double or triple in one or two nights there. And that's just because it's a drinking club, and the owners of the club can afford to give the higher cover charge to the performers, as they make enough profit on the beer and liquor sold, whereas The Main Point can't afford to do that. The Main Point would have to charge much larger admission prices, which would turn away a lot of the people. They know that, so they're very reluctant to try it.

John: It does seem as if they're caught right in the middle.

Gene: Oh, yeah, it's tough for them.

John: A different question I had. I had mentioned in The Folk Life some months ago that you were willing to give space to young performers on your radio program. Is that kind of option still available, and how would the performer get in touch with you?

Gene: All the time. All I ask is that they send me a tape, and that I can tell, you know, that they're not terrible. I mean, I've had people that I've been embarrassed to have on! Either because I didn't listen enough to their tape, or what was on their tape wasn't representative of what they were doing. I was actually embarrassed, because I'd like to introduce people to the Philadelphia audience on my program, people with potential, diamonds in the rough, so to speak. I'd put almost anyone on - I shouldn't say that! -but if there's a sparkle of talent in there, I like to do it. Because it's an experience for them to be heard, and when and if they become better-known, they'll remember when they come to town, and they'll still be willing to come on. In a way, it's a trade deal, if you want to call it that. I'm giving them exposure and the audience is getting entertainment, and we're all getting experience from it. It's a little bit of an adventure to discover - and I discover right along with the audience, we discover new talent, new songs, old songs that somebody had just revived. I mean, to hear Kevin Roth at the concert we just did at Widener, he did a song I've always loved, "Kitty Alone," and I always heard that from
Martha Beers, the song as I first heard it was from an album of the Beers Family, a lovely melody, and I always thought, "Wow, what a lovely melody, what a beautiful thing, isn't it a shame there are no contemporary singers using that melody, doing something with it," and here is Kevin Roth, a young, talented guy, with a great singing voice - just great - so when I heard that, I said, "Wow!" to myself - "Somebody grab that!" I walk around with melodies in my head that I like, and I wonder why somebody doesn't get hold of it, even if they change it a little bit, in the commercial sense. Like "The Twa Corbies," which has a nice, driving, minor key thing, a fine feeling.

John: Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger do have a lovely recording of that in the Long Harvest series.

Gene: Oh, Steeleye Span have also recorded it. There are some really fine recordings of it. I have one by a fine Scottish singer called Alistair MacDonald, and I've been trying to track the guy down. He has an album, Tam Lin, and I got it from a doctor friend of mine from Philadelphia, who got it over there. And he wrote him, tried to contact him, to ask for more albums, telling him I played them here, and never got an answer.

John: Well, here's my last question, Gene, if you don't mind. You've given me a lot of your time today, and I really appreciate it. OK. Is there such a thing as music you listen to at home for pure pleasure? I know there is so much you have to listen to just for business reasons like "keeping up."

Gene: I go in cycles. Oh, occasionally I'll pick up on something that is very "au courant," if that's the right phrase. Something that's very popular at the moment.
Like when Abbey Road first came out. Or when the Joe Cocker albums first came out. But at the same time I'm still listening to new releases by the Putnam String County Band, or Harry Tufts' new album, Grubstakes.

John: Is that on Folk Legacy?

Gene: No, it's on a small label called Biscuit City.

John: Oh, right - out of Denver, Colorado.

Gene: They do some good sea shanties on there, they do some other things. Harry does a beautiful version of "Buffalo Skinners," and so on. And lately I've been very taken by Mary McCaslin - and have been for I'd say the last six months to a year. I've always liked her singing style, the way she treats songs - even Beatles songs. She just did "Pinball Wizard," with a banjo. She's very reminiscent of Hedy West. And Jim Ringer is another of my favorites. I like Lew London - I'm especially taken with his guitar and voice in performance. I listen to Bruce Springsteen, because I think he's incredible. I like some of the new Joan Baez stuff. I listen to Bob Dylan. And I always go back to my old albums. Lately I find myself listening to jazz. My old Miles Davis albums. John Coltrane. Jimmy Yancy's piano. Thelonius Monk. Sometimes I listen to Dave Brubeck with Paul Desmond, doing "Take Five," or "Don't Worry Bout Me," or "Balcony Rock..."

John: "Blue Rondo A La Turk"?

Gene: Yes - exactly. A lot of those songs have certain connotations that go along with them - they remind me of certain times in my life, certain people in my life. It's a recall of experience, so the song has a double meaning for me. I always liked it as a song, and then it reminds me of a nice thing. That's when I'm feeling nostalgic. And then when I'm feeling adventurous? Two nights ago I just heard a Brazilian jazz musician who's been around for years, and I'd never heard of. Guy with a beard, and a full head of white hair, like Albert Einstein. Heavy-set. A strange name I can't pronounce. Incredible jazz piano that was syncopated in a way I've never heard. I'm going to try to get that album. I don't know what it's called, I don't even know his name. But I'll tell you, there is one kind of music I like especially, Peruvian music, the kind of thing Los Cunjo Males used to do. I'd like to hear more of that music. I know David Lewis did some recordings on Nonesuch, field recordings, actually. Nut-charangas and wooden, globular flutes, that high, Andean kind of sound - it's just a thing I find especially appetizing. I just wish there was more of that... There are a couple of Chilean groups, but I've only heard a very little bit. There's one, I have their album, a lot of which is of a very protest nature -

John: Rightly so?

Gene: Deservedly so! But there are other parts which are, I think, closer to Peruvian mountain music.

John: I keep remembering what Phil Ochs said about that. "In a time of ugliness, beauty is its own protest."

Gene: H'm. Ah, well... Phil Ochs was... I was... That was another tragedy that came close to home. Because Phil Ochs was a good friend.

John: I read that Bob Gibson said one of the things behind that was, after Phil got mugged in South Africa, he lost a couple of the high notes off the top of his range, and couldn't sing his own songs any more.

Gene: Oh, yes. He was very down about that. I remember he had dinner at my house, right after seeing a specialist. He'd seen two specialists, one who told him that he would regain his vocal range, and then he got a contradictory prognosis from another doctor. He didn't know which way to go. It was one of the worst times I'd ever seen him. He had a terrible habit of this, of scratching his chest, you know, a nervous tic. I asked him about it, and he said, "No, it's just nervousness." I thought he had a rash or something, putting his hand in his shirt. You know, it was a bad time for him. And I think it was shortly after that time when he started drinking and acting silly up in New York. Then he straightened up! Everyone thought he was going to be all right...

John: Ach, well. Look, I've been enjoying this talk, Gene, but I know you're a busy man.

Gene: Oh, right. I'm supposed to be somewhere else right now, about five blocks from here. Saul Broudy's going to be here soon...

John: Thank you very much for your time, Gene.

Gene: Well, I hope you can make some sense out of it!

John: Oh, I think we can reproduce it as near intact as possible.

Gene: All right. You know, the fact of my longevity on the air in Philadelphia has a strange kind of advantage, when I have young people listening to me whose parents listened to me...! I remember one time Benjy Aronoff introduced me to an audience as. "Here's the guy who taught us all about folk music." And I thought, "He didn't mean teach,' but played the records and the artists that turned people on to things." And what that comes down to is still an extension of me in my living-room with my friends and my records. If you ever do come over to my house, John, I guarantee you I'm going to play some records for you! [Laughter] Just strap you in a chair...! I mean, when I find something like "Sheebeg and Sheemore," or Carolan's stuff - I just say, "Gimme more of this music!
John: Speaking of Benjy Aronoff reminded me - David Amrams coming round again soon -

Gene: I know! I've heard a tape of David's new album, which is very un-folky, except that the tunings are all kind of modal, as if he's getting back into the jazz and combining it with salsa, taking the colorations of traditional music, themes from Spain, from Puerto Rico, or wherever, Latino themes, drums, like Miles Davis would.

John: That's a Ray Mantilla influence, probably.

Gene: Also the trip to Cuba too. There's a lot of interchange there.

John: Well, that's David.

Gene: I don't know if you're familiar with Miles Davis' Sketches of Spain?

John: Not at all.

Gene: A beautiful album - still available. The thing - the arrangements are linear, but you can separate out the lines, the horn and so on, and they're all pretty melodies, but taken together....

John: The man hears music in strange ways, doesn't he? H'm. Sketches of Spain?

Gene: An old Columbia album. There are a couple of traditional songs in there. The arrangements are by Gil Evans, who's my favorite jazz arranger of all time... Anyway!

John: Thanks again, Gene.

Gene: My pleasure. I hope you can sort it out.

[Not that I especially care to try to try to untangle such a fine web of allusion and suggestion, a network of feelings and thinking. I'd rather just enjoy, wouldn't you? And remember - "Folk Music with Gene Shay," Sunday nights on WXPN, 88.5 FM, the University of Pennsylvania's NPR outlet. If we don't see you in the crowd at the Philadelphia Folk Festival, enjoying Gene Shay's audience-fed "Bad Joke Marathon." And keep listening for that 4-CD boxed set of music from 40 years of the Philadelphia Folk Festival, on Sliced Bread Records...]